I really loved the quote on page 37, that Ty also mentioned. "The Word of the Father is Himself divine, that all things that are, owe their being to His will and power, and that is is through Him that the Father gives order to creation, by Him that all things are moved, and through Him that they receive their being." It reminds me of Hebrews 1:3, specifically that "He upholds the universe by the Word of His power." Jesus is equal in divinity and without Him there would be nothing.
I liked that Athanasius brought up different views and beliefs about what was the beginning and how the beginning came to be. God has to be the creator who created out of nothing, otherwise He wouldn't be God, He'd just be a craftsman.
A question I have:
On page 38 it says, "the renewal of creation has been wrought by the Self-same Word Who made it in the beginning." My question is what he means by 'renewal of creation.' Is he describing salvation through the cross and how we are restored to our original purpose through the Gospel? Or is he describing the final renewal of creation when He makes a new heaven and new earth? Or is it something else?
I think by "renewal of creation," he means both of those things! I would include the resurrection with the work of the cross in beginning this process of renewal and salvation. We are spiritually renewed by the Spirit through faith in Jesus' death and resurrection, so a New Humanity has been inaugurated, Christ Himself being the firstfruits of this New Humanity. But we wait for the fullness of this renewal of Man (new bodies), which will be fulfilled in the final Resurrection, and will also include a complete renewal of ALL things: a new heaven and new earth, like you said!
If anyone else has another perspective or some different thoughts, I'd love to hear them!
There is, thus, no inconsistency between creation and salvation; for the One Father has employed the same Agent for both works, effecting the salvation of the world through the same Word Who made it in the beginning.
Initially, I thought Athanasius was referring to just Creation and the Cross, but the second Coming completed this work so 🙌
It was very interesting to consider the statement on pg. 44 "for it is God alone who exists." I had to read over this section a few times, because my initial reaction was "Well I exist, don't I? My chair and my desk exist -- they're here. My dogs and spouse exist, right?"
After turning it over more than once, I think, firstly, that Athanasius is speaking of existence in the metaphysical sense -- God alone exists outside of our conception of the Earth, time, being, and the blink of an eye that is a human life. Secondly, I think Athanasius is getting at a distinct difference between existence and being alive. I've spent a lot of time in the dictionary throughout this first chapter (LOL), and even though I felt like I knew the definition of "exist," I decided to give myself a refresher since my dictionary was right there. The definition I see is "have objective reality or being." The definition I see for "alive" is "living, not dead." As humans, we are all alive (hence why we die), but the status of existence, or "objective reality," can only be granted by God when we are granted eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven.
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Throughout the chapter, I felt Athanasius made near-constant reference to the Trinity. Athanasius did such a great job portraying the unity facet of the Trinity that, at times, I found myself turned around and unsure which of the three he was referring to! I do not think this is a result of poor writing, but a clear portrayal of the complexity and ubiquity of our Lord.
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I was confused on pg. 45, when Athanasius referenced "Wisdom 2. 23 f." After some searching, it seems he is referring to the book of Solomon (or Wisdom of Solomon). This confused me more, as I've never seen a book in the Bible called "Solomon" or "Wisdom of Solomon." After more searching, it seems like it is a book included in some Bibles, but not others (depending on denomination.) This is definitely something for me to look deeper into as I was unaware that the Bible was revised in such a way throughout the years.
Ya it looks like Wisdom of Solomon was not accepted by protestants as a part of the canon for a number of different reasons. It remains in Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, though I'm not sure whether or not they accept it as Scripture.
On the existence/non-existence question, maybe the little section where I addressed that in my post would be helpful or my response to Jared's comment!
Hi! It is the Hutfles family here, Joel and Amber! Sorry we are late to the party.
This is a great first chapter, but certainly, a lot to chew on! I really appreciate that Athanasius set the stage by talking about the origin of men, and how we CHOSE our corrupt state, from a state of incorruption. Pg. 43 noted that He willed that man should remain in incorruption, but man chose evil, coming under the law of sin and death — turning back to non-existence.
I was recently in 1 Corinthians 15, and thought this really helped me better understand the reading:
“I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.”
A question — Let’s talk about evil being a non-being. Is that because He himself knows no evil? How can man choose something that didn’t exist apart from the Creator?
We may have more thoughts to come, but that is all for now!
Awesome connection with that passage in 1 Corinthians! I think you'll find that even more rich after reading chapter 2.
The non-existence/being language has proved quite the brain bender for people haha. The way he is using it it similar to how we might say that evil is only the absence of goodness or darkness is only the absence of light. God is the source of all being. He is Life. As we drift further and further from Him (the source of Being and Life), we therefore drift further and further into non-being and Death.
I loved the first chapter overall but I do question one of his statements on page 44.
“For the transgression of the commandment was making them turn back again according to their nature; and as they had at the beginning come into being out of non-existence, so were they now on the way to returning, through corruption, to non-existence again.”
What exactly do you think he means by this? Surely he does not mean non-existence in a literal sense but maybe in a figurative one? If it is figurative I understand the sentiment of the passage, but if he is meaning this literally, I would have to say I disagree with Athanasius on this one.
I go a bit into that question in my post, but essentially what I think he means is that God is the source of all being, and as you grow further from Him, you drift from Being into non-Being if that makes sense? If you aren't connected to the source of being, you are the opposite: non-being. Kind of like God is the source of life, so if we are separated from Him, we are "dead" in a sense, though maybe not physically dead.
In short, I don't think Athanasius means non-existence in the way you're thinking.
I wasn't intending to join this book study, partly because I didn't own this book already and partly because I work retail and this tends to be a busy time at work 🤪
Anyway, my brother bought me this book and it arrived a couple days ago. And we can always make time for things that are important. So I am stripped of all excuses 😅
Can I start by saying I loved CS Lewis' introduction to this book?? I know I am inclined to love all his writings, but c'mon who isn't? He made some great points on why I need to start reading the oldies but goodies 😁 And this may be the oldest book I've read ... well, aside from the Good Book.
This chapter fed my commitment to worship and obey God, reminding me that He chose me to know Him - and what an honor that is 🙌
By nature, of course, man is mortal, since he was made from nothing; but he bears also the Likeness of Him Who is, and if he preserves that Likeness through constant contemplation, then his nature is deprived of its power and he remains incorrupt.
Page 44
That is to say, the presence of the Word with them shielded them even from natural corruption...
I really loved the quote on page 37, that Ty also mentioned. "The Word of the Father is Himself divine, that all things that are, owe their being to His will and power, and that is is through Him that the Father gives order to creation, by Him that all things are moved, and through Him that they receive their being." It reminds me of Hebrews 1:3, specifically that "He upholds the universe by the Word of His power." Jesus is equal in divinity and without Him there would be nothing.
I liked that Athanasius brought up different views and beliefs about what was the beginning and how the beginning came to be. God has to be the creator who created out of nothing, otherwise He wouldn't be God, He'd just be a craftsman.
A question I have:
On page 38 it says, "the renewal of creation has been wrought by the Self-same Word Who made it in the beginning." My question is what he means by 'renewal of creation.' Is he describing salvation through the cross and how we are restored to our original purpose through the Gospel? Or is he describing the final renewal of creation when He makes a new heaven and new earth? Or is it something else?
I think by "renewal of creation," he means both of those things! I would include the resurrection with the work of the cross in beginning this process of renewal and salvation. We are spiritually renewed by the Spirit through faith in Jesus' death and resurrection, so a New Humanity has been inaugurated, Christ Himself being the firstfruits of this New Humanity. But we wait for the fullness of this renewal of Man (new bodies), which will be fulfilled in the final Resurrection, and will also include a complete renewal of ALL things: a new heaven and new earth, like you said!
If anyone else has another perspective or some different thoughts, I'd love to hear them!
I loved this little snippet on page 38!
I had highlighted the last sentence:
There is, thus, no inconsistency between creation and salvation; for the One Father has employed the same Agent for both works, effecting the salvation of the world through the same Word Who made it in the beginning.
Initially, I thought Athanasius was referring to just Creation and the Cross, but the second Coming completed this work so 🙌
Thank you for broadening my limited thoughts ☺️
It was very interesting to consider the statement on pg. 44 "for it is God alone who exists." I had to read over this section a few times, because my initial reaction was "Well I exist, don't I? My chair and my desk exist -- they're here. My dogs and spouse exist, right?"
After turning it over more than once, I think, firstly, that Athanasius is speaking of existence in the metaphysical sense -- God alone exists outside of our conception of the Earth, time, being, and the blink of an eye that is a human life. Secondly, I think Athanasius is getting at a distinct difference between existence and being alive. I've spent a lot of time in the dictionary throughout this first chapter (LOL), and even though I felt like I knew the definition of "exist," I decided to give myself a refresher since my dictionary was right there. The definition I see is "have objective reality or being." The definition I see for "alive" is "living, not dead." As humans, we are all alive (hence why we die), but the status of existence, or "objective reality," can only be granted by God when we are granted eternal life in the Kingdom of Heaven.
-------------
Throughout the chapter, I felt Athanasius made near-constant reference to the Trinity. Athanasius did such a great job portraying the unity facet of the Trinity that, at times, I found myself turned around and unsure which of the three he was referring to! I do not think this is a result of poor writing, but a clear portrayal of the complexity and ubiquity of our Lord.
-------------
I was confused on pg. 45, when Athanasius referenced "Wisdom 2. 23 f." After some searching, it seems he is referring to the book of Solomon (or Wisdom of Solomon). This confused me more, as I've never seen a book in the Bible called "Solomon" or "Wisdom of Solomon." After more searching, it seems like it is a book included in some Bibles, but not others (depending on denomination.) This is definitely something for me to look deeper into as I was unaware that the Bible was revised in such a way throughout the years.
Ya it looks like Wisdom of Solomon was not accepted by protestants as a part of the canon for a number of different reasons. It remains in Catholic and Orthodox Bibles, though I'm not sure whether or not they accept it as Scripture.
On the existence/non-existence question, maybe the little section where I addressed that in my post would be helpful or my response to Jared's comment!
I think you're onto something with your train of thought making a distinction between being "alive" and "existing".
Talk about needing a dictionary! "Ubiquity"?! Perfect word that I never knew I needed 🤌🏻
Hi! It is the Hutfles family here, Joel and Amber! Sorry we are late to the party.
This is a great first chapter, but certainly, a lot to chew on! I really appreciate that Athanasius set the stage by talking about the origin of men, and how we CHOSE our corrupt state, from a state of incorruption. Pg. 43 noted that He willed that man should remain in incorruption, but man chose evil, coming under the law of sin and death — turning back to non-existence.
I was recently in 1 Corinthians 15, and thought this really helped me better understand the reading:
“I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.”
1 Corinthians 15:50-58 ESV
https://bible.com/bible/59/1co.15.50-58.ESV
A question — Let’s talk about evil being a non-being. Is that because He himself knows no evil? How can man choose something that didn’t exist apart from the Creator?
We may have more thoughts to come, but that is all for now!
~ Signing off
Awesome connection with that passage in 1 Corinthians! I think you'll find that even more rich after reading chapter 2.
The non-existence/being language has proved quite the brain bender for people haha. The way he is using it it similar to how we might say that evil is only the absence of goodness or darkness is only the absence of light. God is the source of all being. He is Life. As we drift further and further from Him (the source of Being and Life), we therefore drift further and further into non-being and Death.
Hopefully that made the idea a little clearer!
I loved the first chapter overall but I do question one of his statements on page 44.
“For the transgression of the commandment was making them turn back again according to their nature; and as they had at the beginning come into being out of non-existence, so were they now on the way to returning, through corruption, to non-existence again.”
What exactly do you think he means by this? Surely he does not mean non-existence in a literal sense but maybe in a figurative one? If it is figurative I understand the sentiment of the passage, but if he is meaning this literally, I would have to say I disagree with Athanasius on this one.
I go a bit into that question in my post, but essentially what I think he means is that God is the source of all being, and as you grow further from Him, you drift from Being into non-Being if that makes sense? If you aren't connected to the source of being, you are the opposite: non-being. Kind of like God is the source of life, so if we are separated from Him, we are "dead" in a sense, though maybe not physically dead.
In short, I don't think Athanasius means non-existence in the way you're thinking.
Well, talk about being fashionably late 😬
I wasn't intending to join this book study, partly because I didn't own this book already and partly because I work retail and this tends to be a busy time at work 🤪
Anyway, my brother bought me this book and it arrived a couple days ago. And we can always make time for things that are important. So I am stripped of all excuses 😅
Can I start by saying I loved CS Lewis' introduction to this book?? I know I am inclined to love all his writings, but c'mon who isn't? He made some great points on why I need to start reading the oldies but goodies 😁 And this may be the oldest book I've read ... well, aside from the Good Book.
This chapter fed my commitment to worship and obey God, reminding me that He chose me to know Him - and what an honor that is 🙌
By nature, of course, man is mortal, since he was made from nothing; but he bears also the Likeness of Him Who is, and if he preserves that Likeness through constant contemplation, then his nature is deprived of its power and he remains incorrupt.
Page 44
That is to say, the presence of the Word with them shielded them even from natural corruption...
Page 45
Great to hear from you again, Shalisa!! Better late than never 😅
On Lewis' intro, wasn't it awesome?! Reading that a couple years ago is what inspired me to start reading Plato, which I am so thankful for.
On The Incarnation is a great one; I'm excited to read your reflections!